ESB Exclusive – Answers to Raven’s Second Mail Bag – Part 1

Thanks for the question and support for the new Mailbag format. Due to time and space restraints, I will not be able to go in to great detail in my response however I will try address the just of it. Feel free to email me for more details if you like.

I’ve watched countless thousands of hours of boxing footage of all of the “greats” you are naming in this letter. My opinion is that Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight, and greatest fighter of all-time. I don’t think there was ever anyone like him, nor will there be again. You can argue that Ali was better, as a heavyweight and that Sugar Ray Robinson was better over all, however I would disagree. I’ve got a ton of Louis’s fights and films and I think he was near perfect. I agree with you that Stanley Ketchel did not look impressive to watch, however, we should note the time that Ketchel came along, and that defensive fighters were few and far between. Stanley won most of his fights because he was one of the hardest punchers of all-time and through his aggressiveness. Here’s an interesting bit of trivia regarding Ketchel. He was the first man to coin the phrase “Shake hands and come out fighting”. It was in response to his notorious bouts with the rugged Billy Papke. When Ketchel would square off for the refs instructions before their fight and Stanley would reach out to shake hands, Papke kept fouling poor Stan with vicious punches to the skull. This happened twice! The second time, Papke broke Ketchel’s nose, and closed both of his eyes with the single cheap shot. After lasting twelve rounds in that condition and subsequently worse, Ketchel demanded his manager get him a third fight with Papke only two months later, during which he uttered the immortal phrase regarding the pre-fight hand shake. Ketchel ended up knocking out Papke in the 11th round after a fairly one sided beat down of his nemesis. Billy Roche, who refereed many of Ketchel’s fights said “I believe that Stanley would have knocked out as capable of heavyweight as Jack Dempsey”. (that may be a bit biased, however many considered Ketchel the greatest fighter of all-time during his heyday). He was described as “innately cruel”. In the gym, he had absolutely no mercy on his sparring partners and would just as soon slaughter them as learn from them. It didn’t matter if they put a flyweight in with him to train, he would split them to pieces as if they were a heavyweight. No mercy, and that’s how he fought in the ring. A vicious, free swinging slugger. His skills were fairly primitive however.

Dempsey had his long layoff, and at around three years, it’s a coincidence that Ali, Joe Louis and Mike Tyson also had layoffs around as long during their reigns. None of these men listed, including Dempsey were ever the same. Inactivity is one of a fighters most merciless opponents.

Back when Ali’s name was Cassius Clay, he was beyond phenomenal. I can’t imagine ever seeing another fighter like him. His hand speed was just incredible, his foot speed even more so. The way he could get off seven and eight punch combinations WHILE moving on his feet was something we are not likely to ever see again.

I like Zarate, and I personally didn’t think he was over rated. He started losing more when he moved up in weight, but in his prime, he was nearly unbeatable. A great power puncher with above average skills. There were just so many talented, equally hard hitting fighters at or around Zarate’s weight class during his prime, that he was bound to lose to some.

Here’s the deal on speed…firstly, we are talking about hand speed, not foot speed, since Ali was the fastest of foot ever, of all time in the heavyweight division. No one else was even close. As far as hand speed, I think there are three contenders, Ali, Patterson, and Mike Tyson in his prime. Maybe a case could be made for Roy Jones Jr., however since Roy only fought once, I do not think it was enough to do an accurate assessment by.

My breakdown is like this, Floyd could land more punches in a shorter period of time than either Ali or Mike. If that means he was the fastest, then that’s the answer. I believe it is more complicated than that however, and a lot of it has to do with the types of punches each man threw. Ali’s reach was over 80 inches long, some claim as long as 82 inches. Patterson’s were only 71 inches, and Tyson’s around the same, respectively. Then you have to consider that most of Patterson’s and Tyson’s punches were short range hooks and feints, and that Ali’s were often fully extended combinations of left jabs and right crosses, it’s easy to conclude that Ali was actually faster, because of the way he threw his shots.

To make matters even more complicated, it’s only fair to consider that Tyson threw a lot more power behind his punches than either Floyd or Muhammad. Had “Iron” Mike chosen to take a little off and only throw for speed, perhaps you would have to conclude that he was in fact the faster puncher.

All in all, you’re talking about a fairly exclusive group, and you could argue for any of these three men, but based on the length of arm, type of punch and speed of combinations and jabs during their primes, Muhammad Ali would have to be considered the fastest puncher of all-time. With Patterson second and Tyson a very, very close third.

Floyd Patterson campaigned as a middleweight as an amatuer, collecting a Gold Medal in the 1952 Helskinki Olympics, and fought approximately 20 professional fights as a middleweight.

Thanks for the question my friend. Yep, I guess it had to be a Klitschko question *laugh*. Well, you know, Vitali is very strong and large, but I don’t think that would give Ali any problems. We’re talking about a prime Ali vs a prime Vitali. Not the old version of Ali that rope a doped. Ali was a very big man himself, at around 6’3-4 and 220lbs. The thing about Vitali that may have given Ali a few awkward moments is his unorthodox style. It’s not out of the question to imagine Ali taking a few rounds to figure out the towering Ukrainian’s technique and style. The problem would be that Vitali really needed to intimidate his opponents with his power in order to be successful. His best punch was his right cross, and he never demonstrated much of a left hook like Wladimir has. Ali was susceptible to the left hook, but not to the right cross in his prime. I also don’t think Vitali would have been successful at landing many flush blows on “the Greatest”. Watch footage of Ali moving around when he was in his prime, the way he moved in on large men nearly the size of Vitali (Ernie Tyrell, 6’6 82 inch reach, Joe Bugner 6’5 82 inch reach). Ali was just too damned fast for someone with the foot movement of Vitali, even in his prime. Vitali would have done much better against a fighter with the style of Joe Fraizer or Sonny Liston. Guys that didn’t dance and throw lightning fast combinations. Now Vitali did stop Larry Donald, who is a poor mans Ali. Let me stress, VERY poor man. As in Ricardo Mayorga living on dirt floors his whole childhood poor. Donald isn’t even 1/1,000,000th as talented as Ali was, but you get my drift. The fact that Vitali could catch Donald while he was doing his best Ali impersonation indicates that the fight would have lasted in to the mid to mid-late rounds, but I can’t see it ending any other way than Ali stopping Klitschko on cuts or by straight knock out.

Thanks for the compliment. I’ve always enjoyed all of your articles, and have often openly stated so on your threads. I think you’ve been a major consistent credit to the boxing community for a very long time and are one of the “must reads” on East Side. Wow! Very interesting question. I remember the bitterness between Mancini and Arroyo’s camps. How this fight never took place is just spellbinding. In a fantasy match up between the two, in their absolute peaks (during the time where they fought Bobby Chacon and Terrence Ali respectively), I think you’d have to side with “Boom Boom”. The reason why I say that is because Mancini would have been too experienced. He had already fought the much better opposition by that time in their careers. He’d been in a war against Alexis Arguello. Outpointed under rated Mexican boxer Jose Luis Ramirez, destroyed Ernesto Espana, and overcame the devistation of the Koo Kim tragedy. Arroyo was talented, but to be bluntly honest, Ali was probably the best win on his record. And even in that fight, the judges had it a majority draw going in to the stoppage. I just think Mancini’s relentless attack in his prime would have been too much. I think of the young Vinnie Panzienza out bulling Arroyo, and winning a decision and I just think Ray was an even better fighter with that tenacious style. I’d say Mancini by UD, or maybe even by late TKO stoppage. Would have been a great fight though.

In their absolute primes, Mike Tyson was just too fast and too ferocious. Nobody that Rocky faced was nearly as fast or formidable. Don’t take this as a slight to the Rock. I loved Rocky, always will. I regard him higher than many, but the fact is that the absolute prime Mike Tyson would have beaten most of the former heavyweight champions of the world. Too much speed and power, a good defence and a capable chin. He also didn’t get discouraged when he was young. If Mike couldn’t out right KO him, he’d bust his face up in to shreds. If Jersey Joe Walcott’s left hook and Archie Moore’s short right hand could put Rocky down, I can’t see him taking Mike’s flurries of five or six power hooks and uppercuts, and unlike Joe and Arch’, Mike was relentless once he hurt a fighter. Marciano’s one weakness (and he had very few) was that he could be caught early and wobbled. Anyone with that weakness facing a prime Tyson may as well pack it in before the pre-fight instructions.