Part 2 of 2
by Geoffrey Ciani (Interviewed by Jenna J & Geoffrey Ciani) – This week’s 112th edition of On the Ropes Boxing Radio featured an exclusive interview with former two-division champion Bernard Hopkins (51-5-2, 32 KOs), who is scheduled to have a rematch against WBC light heavyweight champion Jean Pascal (26-1-1, 16 KOs) on May 21 at a venue to be determined. The first time these two met in December they battled to a controversial draw in which most observers felt Hopkins had won. Hopkins spoke about Pascal and also provided opinions on various other topics. Here is Part One of that complete interview transcript:
GEOFFREY CIANI: Bernard, changing things up a little bit, another big fight coming up in May is Manny Pacquiao versus Sugar Shane Mosley. I want to get your thoughts on that fight and do you think Shane has any chance in this one being that a lot of observers are counting him out based on his recent performances with Floyd Mayweather and Sergio Mora?
BERNARD HOPKINS: I think that Shane Mosley has always been great when he’s had to prove that he’s not done. Anybody that thinks that Shane Mosley doesn’t have an opportunity to win this fight is a damn fool. I mean how many times do we have to be fooled? It’s not what Shane actually needs to do 101%, near perfect, it’s not perfect to win this fight. It’s how Pacquiao. It’s where his head is at. See people, we got this thing about building human beings up like they are Gods! At any given time, including me, are subjected somehow to take a person lightly if we don’t check ourselves as we go through that waiting period of getting ready for the next guy. After awhile it can become old. It can become boring. You learn how to put the poker face on. You learn how to say the right things. You learn how to even change your hair every now and then to look different. But at the end of the day, there is always that room for what? Tyson and Buster Douglas! I can name ten more. It was one of the greatest upsets of all time. Yeah, I can give you nine more. I already gave you one.
So when a person says to me does this person have a shot, and then I look at a guy Shane who fought to the level of the competition. It was a fight he couldn’t win if he knocked the guy out or if he went the distance. Why? Because these guys were good guys, they were competitors, they were good guys, but they weren’t superstars. So a superstar or a former superstar or a living legend, he gets up for the same people or the same guy in a way that he has to look at the man in the mirror. And when you look at a superstar going up against a guy who’s been there and done that, and is now in this category called “legend”, you get up for these things.
It reminds me of a funny, funny saying that I said many, many times and I’m going to keep it clean. There’s another version of it that’s X, but I’m going to keep it clean. Do I get up better for a pretty girl or is it a letdown for me when I see somebody that’s not as pretty as the other one, because I believe that in some situations there is no ugly or pretty but it’s a situation. Do I get up for a pretty girl? Forget personality! We’re talking about looks right now. Or do I get down, so you can understand the philosophy, do I get down for the other side of the opposite of pretty? Do I get down when I see the choices that I have? So Shane will get up for this fight.
It’s up to him to win it because I tell people over and over and over again. You’re not the first one that’s getting this. I already put it out there ya’ll. So don’t be upset if you see another internet interview with the same thing. You’re like oh he said that to us. Yeah, I did say this already. It’s not what Shane’s supposed not do or do. They already made what’s going to happen. The Gods of this world already said this is going to happen, this is going to happen, this is going to happen, and they got that opinion, but I call them Gods of this world. I take it to the extreme, the dictators, the know-it-before-it-happens guys. You look at Pacquiao. He’s pretty busy. I love his hair style. You like at Justin Bieber or Bruce Lee, either one you can pick. There are some changes going on.
So with all of these things, I remember Lennox Lewis. He went out to do the movie before he fought Rahman the first time. Go ahead Bernard, keep preaching. I can go on. Remember I said I can name nine more? I gave you one, now I gave you two. So we’re at eight now. Depending on how long we stay on the phone I’m going to give you all eight. See, because I tell people that Bernard Hopkins is softly, and I really believe that some people hate people, but I believe I’m softly hating. I’m putting a little fancy title on the first name, but because of my thinking and because of what I know and because of what I don’t take and stand for, I speak what it is and I just put out the strategy, if you can find it in that maze or puzzle in my thinking.
You all forgot about the reason other than is what Pacqiuiao doesn’t do. It’s what Pacquiao has been doing. It’s where his head is at. You know Pacquiao’s human in case anybody forgot. I believe that he wipes his butt the same way we do. So any human being is subjected to fall under these things called “praises and glory”. So not even putting in who ya’ll forgot. I didn’t forget. We’ll get back to that, I didn’t forget. If he has a guy that I call “grasshopper”, here’s a guy that if you remember the kung fu movie about the student and the teacher, here’s a guy behind talent. There is always somebody that has wisdom and knowledge and understanding and that guy doesn’t get the credit and responsibility of looking out for the fighter when he recognized, not only in my situation but in Shane Mosley’s situation, he recognized that if he didn’t speak up that this fight or life in a battle could be taken not just because of the sport that he’s into, but because of the illegal hand-wrapping of certain individuals. So when you have that mind behind the dots and the T’s are crossed and you have the teacher who’s not giving ass-kissing praises, but he’s giving techniques and skills and setting the stage up late at night where you have to wake him up and turn the TV off because he fell asleep watching TV, not the soap operas.
Again, I say it’s not what Pacquiao doesn’t do. It’s how his head is at, because he’s seen success and we’ve seen people become intoxicated where they needed rehab of knowledge and success. It’s a different kind of wine. It ain’t white. It ain’t red.
CIANI: Bernard, on boxing message boards fans are always fond of pitting different fighters from different eras against each other in mythical match-ups, and one of the one that always comes up in middleweight history is a hypothetical fight between you and Marvelous Marvin Hagler. I know a lot of fans are curious, and I know I’m curious because that would be one of those dream fights that I would love to see, but how do you think in your opinion you would fare against somebody like Marvelous One?
HOPKINS: Our careers would be over. We’d both be in ICU. We’d both be done. Whatever fight we fight before that fight, we better get it in. Hagler’s heart is something I built my legacy and my heart and my abilities off of. He was relentless. Not only was the training part itself a life story you can write about yourself, but everybody understands he was the most disciplined. He was always in shape. That’s where I got that from. Marvin Hagler was somebody I read about for many, many years in the penitentiary. Marvin Hagler was a guy that had ties in history in Philadelphia because he came through there and he lost some of his early fights in Philadelphia with “Boogaloo” Watts and Willie “The Worm” Monroe. Check the record. So Marvin Hagler, the great Marvin Hagler understood with the personalities, he came to Philadelphia to get branded as do you have it or do you not? The middleweight division was hot and the Mecca of Boxing was Philadelphia where you had to come through. Not New York, it was Philly!
So when I look at Marvin Hagler having ties to a great city that I’m from and then hearing the old guys in the gym, the Bouie Fishers, the this guy, or that guy, and all these people are saying things to me about this great guy. I’m saying, “Wait! You mean he stayed in shape all the time?” and I took a page out of his book, and I said this in many articles way before I became Bernard Hopkins, “The Executioner”, or the legend, or the undisputed middleweight champion, or the undisputed light heavyweight champion. It’s all in the archives. You can find it, so this is something I said ten, fifteen, sixteen years ago and time moves fast like a speeding bullet and here we are right now, and I’m glad to be talking about who I took a page out of his book. And it wasn’t his style; it was his discipline, because Marvin Hagler never to my knowledge had to lose weight, come back in eight hours, four hours, sweating in a sauna. Marvin Hagler showed up all the time ready.
The outcome of the fight was where it was, but as far as his job he came like he was working in corporate America. If he was supposed to wear a suit and tie, he came with no excuses. He didn’t forget his tie! He didn’t forget his sports jacket! He didn’t forget his clipboard! He forgot nothing, and he came, and he executed, and he did his thing for many, many years. Even though I surpassed his record, the respect of knowing Marvin Hagler, and spending time in the gym briefly, and spending time at a fight when he showed up—if you remember the Tarver fight, if you remember the Winky Wright fight. He showed up and we talked way after the lights and the camera went off. I asked him, “Marvin, have you ever got tired? Have you ever got frustrated? Have you ever got bored? And the only frustration was with Marvin Hagler and Ray Leonard, but he stayed the course and one of the greatest fights out of all the great fights he had, it wasn’t Antuofermo.
The fight that really, really motivates me when I’m getting ready for war, even in the last one in December with Pascal, I went back to my old archives because I’m a collector of my own legacy and I also have a lot of other stuff. I have some goodies here, ya’ll. It was John “The Beast” Mugabi and the great “Marvelous” Marvin Hagler. John “The Beast” Mugabi as I say to you now and I predict Pascal will be like, his career was finished after John “The Beast” Mugabi fought Marvin Hagler! He was finished! And as his name said, he was a beast and he was knocking out a lot of middleweight fighters from Philadelphia and he was running up and down Jersey, knocking out guys down there in New York. John “The Beast” Mugabi was one of the hardest punches of that era and Marvin took eleven rounds to wear him out and beat him because he was too smart and too brave for his own good and he had never been right since. He started getting knocked out by mediocre guys after that fight and he was off the map. You remember that fight, right?
CIANI: Oh yeah! I remember that fight.
HOPKINS: Okay! That was a career ending chapter that never really got to take off, and that was John “The Beast” Mugabi, and if you look at my history, haven’t I done that, too? How many fighters that had the potential, maybe or maybe not, to become great and were about to blossom like an orange on a tree if they didn’t run in against Bernard Hopkins. Yeah, I mean that’s the job I take. Some careers get destroyed and some get built. It’s either me or them. I mean this is a selfish game, man. You can’t have sympathy in this game. You can reflect later on and wish the guy well, but at the end of the day we all got to be selfish in this game in that way. In that way pertaining to that situation, you have to be selfish that way. There are a lot of people I believe from Antwon Echols to Robert Allen and I can name about twenty more. I can tell you, these guys would have champions if they would have fought anybody else and might have been around a long time. But that name, “The Executioner”, it says what it is. Not only do you need or got a chance to get beat, but this can also be a career defining change in everybody’s plan—promoters, managers, and TV networks.
My reputation is, and you’ve heard it and you might have said it yourself, guys normally not the same after they fight Bernard Hopkins , the first time, the second time. Why would you say that? Well, let me name some names and then you get the name of the names. It just is what it is, man. Some might think it’s classless, but it is what it is. If I don’t speak about it I can’t rely on anybody else speaking about it because it doesn’t benefit them, or their network, or their websites. I don’t know. I got to remind people what they easily forget. As you say, have a bad night Bernard. The closest baddest night they got to jump out of the airplane without having a parachute was with the Roy Jones fight. Yeah, some brave and honest people out there said, and not fans because fans are going to be what they want to be and even in that fight will say, “Look, the man got hit in the back of the head. Anybody else would have gotten a pass”. If he fought the way he fought and the doctors kept him over night and it was thought he had a concussion, and the reason he didn’t ask it is because they asked him, “Did you see white spots or black spots” and I said “black spots” and they said “fine”. “What do you mean fine? Black is good?” “No, white is concussion.
The rules are different for B-Hop. You see B-Hop is Superman or something when I got to be Superman. I don’t want passes because that’s never been me. I think that would have made me soft mentally, but at the end of the day the book is going to be read. This guy ran through three major, possibly four in 2012. Yeah, I’m looking ahead. That’s not counting my chickens. It’s good to look ahead. That’s the future. Without the future you have no tomorrow. So now B-Hop is setting up this thing called the “road to glory”. What do you mean? You’ve already been there? No, no, no, no. This is a different road. You see, I’ve already been champion. I’ve already been the undisputed. I’ve already been labeled a legend yet. I haven’t heard anybody say “icon” yet—not “a con”, “icon”. I haven’t heard anybody say that yet and until somebody says that, and not now, not until my deeds are done. I don’t want anything given to me. I might consider then, because I don’t think anything else can come after that big word called “icon”. That’s some heavy stuff, man. So I got work to do, ya’ll. I’m not there yet. I must admit, the Jean Pascal won’t do it. You know what that will do? That will make me the oldest champion to ever win a title. You see I’m not supposed to do it at 45. If I do it at 46 it makes me even better. See! I won again! I won again without even winning the fight.
JENNA J: Bernard, the rematch with Jean Pascal is rumored to take place once again over on foreign soil. Do you have any reservations about crossing the border after that controversial draw?
HOPKINS: Quebec City is involved and there are many other places that are involved. Right now there is a bit more out there. Montreal, which I never actually fought at, I’d love to be in Montreal. It’s a great city. I’d love to be there. I got a couple of family members living in Montreal. Quebec City I heard is in the pool. I also heard in the States they’re chomping at the bit, at Madison Square Garden, possibly. It’s just unbelievable, again, I say unbelievable because I’m not going to act like I’m nonchalant about it. It’s unbelievable how people want to be involved in this fight even from even a corporate side. I’ll be in LA this Thursday for All Star Weekend. I got a lot of meetings and a lot of talks to be talked about my fight and where they want to take it at and bring to the table. There are major sponsors that never even got into boxing because they want to hop on the brand of Bernard Hopkins’ youth at 45, 46. I got to get used to saying 46 now. So this becomes now in some people’s mind as presented to my lawyer Eric Mauser, a brand name.
There are a lot of people out there talking about health and awareness in America. What better poster boy to use than B-Hop? That’s what they say to me. I ain’t selling it! They’re coming to me, so my thing is just don’t count out the other people yet. I will go where it’s feasibly best for everybody, even Jean Pascal. Yeah, I’m looking out for him because he doesn’t know better. One day he will find out if he’s going to step on a stick of dynamite as he goes through these trials of learning. So at the end of the day, whether it’s Quebec City, or whether it’s Montreal, or whether it’s in the States, we go where it makes sense. It goes where we could fill a place and that’s the key. You know I don’t have a problem with fighting anywhere. I mean I think honestly, you all know I have no problem fighting anywhere. The fans, if they don’t support you, if you fight a great fight they will look at the situation and they will rule with you whether you’re a Canadian or whether you’re from Philadelphia.
At the end of the day, they respect fighters and that’s why when I left Canada I gained a lot of friends in Quebec City. I gained a lot of fans and a lot of supporters. They wouldn’t even let me out of the damn place! So I have no problem with the fans and the people in Canada. The problems and the issue was what were revealed with changes of scorecards in the tenth round. You got whiteout at the judges table. Who the hell keeps whiteout at the judges table? You get it right one time! That’s like a surgeon doing an operation and all of a sudden he answers his cell phone while he’s got somebody’s body open during an operation. You can’t do that! It’s just unethical! It just doesn’t look right. Even if it’s perceived to be a mistake or whatever, it just doesn’t look right especially since boxing isn’t looked at in a green light anyway. So I mean, what are you thinking about? So in Canada, they’re going to have to change some rules over there. I really think Canadians are going to have to understand that if you want big fights in Canada and you want to compete against America which is the big 500 pound gorilla in boxing period, at the end of the day you can’t subject. You got to have the referee by the commission and you got to have at least one or two judges from Canada. That’s part of our commission rules. Bull! They’re going to have to change that. I might make history and help the proceedings gracefully and respectfully.Come on ya’ll! You all know this doesn’t make sense. You want big fights. You want people feeling that they can come here from wherever they come from and that they can get a fair deal. Maybe my fight will help change history like I did in 1999 speaking at the Senate Hearings and then with the Muhammad Ali Bill. Not just because of me, I guess I gave my two cents I might say when others were afraid to come because of whatever.
So I open a dialogue or anything. I have no problem with Canada. To me it’s just like going upstate New York as I said at the press conferences for the first fight. It’s no problem at all, especially now after that December 18 situation. Canada respects that Bernard Hopkins who there was a never a doubt that he comes with his all, but even now I gained just as much fans as anybody could imagine. If you remember the fight in the first six rounds, and if you don’t, I challenge everybody to go back and view that tape and hear the name they were calling in the sixth round. It reminded me of the Tito Trinidad era in 2001 where 99% of the Puerto Ricans were saying, “B-Hop! B-Hop! B-Hop! B-Hop!” They’re not the judges. They are opinionated, but they’re not the judges or the referee. So when I say that the only way I will go to Canada or the closest I will get to Canada is Niagara Falls, I even had to take that back on certain websites and say, “Wait a minute! Why punish the Canadians?” Look, even if they go with Pascal, they should because my people are going to go with me. I respect them more if they go and really mean that they’re sticking with their Canadian countryman, but it’s a thing that I must change their minds, and when you change their minds their emotion is going to make them say the truth.
Emotions and excitement of a great fight that this living legend came and he gave it his all, and you know what? Most people that watch fights are past 40 years old anyway. So they’re going to say, “Wow! Why can’t I do what I do at my age and I’m five years younger than this guy?” Automatically and morally I win them over. I got all the attributes to win them over. I’m old. I can’t do anything. I’m not supposed to win. Why am I still fighting? The cards are stacked against me. You got some judges who want to dictate what I should do. You got some judges, which I hope’s not the case, but think about it! You got some judges who might look at this overhyped zealous attitude of a person saying over and over to the media, you think these people don’t read? The judges and referees? They might think they’re doing me a favor. As crazy as that might sound, they might think they’re doing me a favor by not doing the right thing. If a guy wins, give him the fight! If a guy don’t, he don’t, but they might think they’re doing me a favor to get me out but that’s not the way you get Bernard Hopkins out. Don’t ya’ll understand? If you look at my history, if you try to flush me out, if you try to keep my quiet, if you try to tell me I got to be with the good ol’ boy networks, then I will fight the powers that be to the end of my days on this earth. So what are ya’ll talking about? Maybe these idiots, and yeah I said idiots, might think they’re doing me an idiotic thing by saying, “Hey, you know what? I’m a judge and I’m 47 years old and I feel horrible because I didn’t eat right. I eat everything that I see and put grease in my body and this guy is in here boxing like this? I’m envious of this guy. I’ll just give him a draw to get him out of here. Maybe he’ll get discouraged or quit”. Who knows? Hey man, look! When things don’t like the way it is you got to come up with all different philosophies and things. I don’t know if this is actually the truth or not but it made people think. They say, “You know what Bernard, I didn’t think of that. Who told you that?” I said, “Somebody had to tell me?” “You’re trying to find excuses for these people.” I’m trying to even help these people. Maybe they want me out. Maybe they want me out so bad, because ya’ll keep saying, “45! 45! 45!”
I understand that and keep saying that, please since I got that new thing going on outside of boxing. Keep saying it! I don’t need Viagra, I don’t need Geritol, I run three or four miles every other day, I take care of my insides which takes care of my outside. They don’t have the willpower and the patience and the long distance running, not the spring type of mentality. They would never understand me. So I’m good. I’m very, very good. I can wait, but I can’t for the next I guess month and a half and get a couple of fights out of the way, and we got to sit back talk again about what’s leading up in April or May. It starts in April and we spill over into May. To be able to do this at this stage in my life, forget 45, 46, 47. To be able to do this at this stage when people already buried me, it’s just another statement of Bernard Hopkins’ drive and patience and never say never attitude. I mean if a young guy could learn that early, if a young female could learn that early, that’s more than a billion dollars. It’s more than a billion dollars.
JENNA: Bernard, you mentioned before you want to be called an “icon” and you think these three fights can help lead you on that path. Who do you want to fight that you think could get you that status?
HOPKINS: Well it’s already written out in this deal with HBO as you mentioned. One of the deals that’s mentioned is that the only fight out of all those three fights is the Bute fight, it could and it probably will be a problem, I don’t know yet. Time’s got to pass by because he has a three fight deal with Showtime. I want to wipe out all the Canadian wannabes that think they’re the champions up there and I want to go out there and just wipe them out after Jean Pascal. I’m on an execution hunt and I want to wipe all the Canadians out, so to do that I got to get Jean Pascal and then I got to get Bute providing he wins his fight as he should and he will. Chad Dawson will get the winner of me and Jean Pascal and then we will have sort of like an accidental tournament that just happened to happen by the conversation of the fights. I said you know what? We should just do a tournament. Give Chad Dawson an opportunity to win his title back by fighting the winner of Bernard Hopkins and Jean Pascal. I said because when they wanted him to fight me, and that is Chad Dawson, nobody knew who the hell Chad Dawson was. He couldn’t even sell out Hartford, Connecticut. I’m not going to say I’ve gotten 20-30,000 people also, so we got a problem there. I’m thinking with my promoter hat and business. I’m not thinking with my ego. I know they’re not used to fighters thinking two ways, but welcome Bernard Hopkins has been there and I think I’ve banged the drums long enough to say I’m not the average bear.
So at the end of the day if time is what it is and it’s meant to be what it is, then let me create something and thanks to Jean Pascal, he called my name out because after the Roy Jones fight they thought I was finished and done. He spoke my name and he got what he wanted and we created something that only God knew was going to happen. I just had to go in there and deliver. So know what they are trying to get out of this soap opera or reality show. That’s a better title, reality show. So we have a light heavyweight tournament made by accident, not accident because of what took place December 18. It happened because what happened December 18 so now you have something to fight for. You have a buzz out there. I’m being a promoter, ya’ll. Haven’t I promoted myself for many, many years? Haven’t I done all kinds of shenanigans and said certain things like you said earlier an hour ago. The way I get in guys’ heads is because I speak with confidence about how I feel. If he gets in their head then fine, that’s not my battle. That’s not my fault. That’s what it is. That’s where it’s at. So Jean Pascal and myself will square off and then the winner gets Chad Dawson which has been agreed upon and contracted, and then my third fight I want to be Bute.
I think that’s a fantastic three fight scenario. You see I didn’t pick no softies and everybody I picked is at least five or six or ten years younger than me. So again, whatever book people out there had already sealed and delivered about the great legacy of Bernard Hopkins, I’m going to force the Bert Sugars, who’s my respected friend because he writes what he feels, not what I say and I respect that. They’re going to have to rewrite whatever they sealed up and had the bowtie ready to go. I’m going to let them open it up and rewrite it again. How many athletes are blessed to have that opportunity when you think that this is the final chapter and then another one comes up. I had to remind them about history even though they might have forgotten it or they might not have wanted to mention it. And what history is that Mister Hopkins? The history of George Foreman. You know what? I’ll get right back to you. Let me call a couple of people. Let me find out something. Bernard don’t you know you’re nine days away when you fight December 18 to beat George Foreman’s record?” I said, “I told you that”. “I’m just telling you, this is a great thing” but these are the things I’m going to do to educate those who don’t want to bring it out. So that’s the hook. That was the connection that will spill over into this rematch, and it makes it even better because now we aren’t even talking about a separation of nine days. We’re talking a separation of months, and we’re talking about the separation of 46 and not 45. Somebody might think that’s a whole year. Who knows? Some people don’t want to do the research. They want quick fixes.
JENNA: Bernard, before I ask you my final question I just wanted to ask you really quickly about when you said you want to take out all the Canadians—
HOPKINS: —There’s only really two that I know of, so that’s why I say “all”. It’s not like a deep pool. It’s not like a deep football team. There is Jean Pascal, who I consider an adopted son of the Canadians, but anyway he wants to be one. He don’t want to be from Haiti. Last time I talked to him at the press conference he was Canadian. So he doesn’t recognize Haiti. My thing is him first and then Bute and I would just move on after that, whether it’s a rocking chair, retirement, or whatever. That’s what I mean by wiping out, because there is no other person I know of to date where I can pin a third baseman on him, which is number three.
JENNA: Well I have one final question for you Bernard. Is there anything you want to say to all the listeners out there, the fans out there, and the people who continue to support you through your career?
HOPKINS: Yes. Don’t give up! Never say never! Have a good day.
JENNA: Thank you very much, Bernard. It has been absolutely fantastic interviewing you again. This is our sixth time having you on and each time you do a great interview. So thank you for your time and we with you all the best of luck.
HOPKINS: Thank you.
CIANI: Thanks Bernard. Good luck.
HOPKINS: Thanks. Thanks.
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For those interested in listening to the Bernard Hopkins interview in its entirety, it begins approximately fifty-five minutes (54:55) into the program.
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